I've read this forum from start to finish, and the mentality of some of the folks here absolutely amazes me! I'm going to start by saying that I'm a marketing specialist, small business owner, and yes, a member of EDC, and a very happy member!

First thing's first: If you want to talk product, we can talk product. I joined at the $297 level. My back office gives me access to 19 pages worth of software and tools that anyone who owns a website or markets a product can benefit from. Do I consider these products to be of high quality and value? ABSOLUTELY! I am, as I said, a small business owner. I specialize in web design, and do occasional freelance work. I have used, and use on a regular basis, several of the products in the back office, including Viral Article, eCover Creator, Impact Web Audio, Ultimate Ad Tracker, and Java Magic. These products make my life as a web designer and a business owner easier. And now we have PromoBlackBox, which is available to me FREE for being an EDC member. I have just created a new marketing website, and will be using the Article Submitter, Search Chameleon and the other tools to help that new website make it to the top!

Next, lets address the issue of scams. I consider a scam to be a situation where I pay and get nothing in return. When I paid with EDC, got a back office with 19 pages full of products that I can use (and which are updated and added to often). I got training on how to market more effectively. And yes, I also got the opportunity to have my product pay for itself. No one forced me to purchase the recommended auto-responders or other services in the back office (they are just that, recommended). As a result, I was able to keep my start-up costs at a minimum, giving me more capital to invest in some effective advertising and making it an easier (and faster) process to earn my money back.

Some here have said that EDC members, including affiliates, are nothing but scammers. I am a team sponsor in EDC. I provide, quite literally, EVERYTHING my team members need to advance. I provide a 20 page training guide based on my years of training and experience in business and marketing. I provide my team members with their own customizable marketing website complete with a domain name of their choice. Note that this isn't a replicated company website, but a website that I design to their specifications. I take a week to work with each team member 1-on-1. I'm available 7 days a week by both phone and email to address any issues or concerns. I make sure my members are aware of the times and dates of training calls. All of this I do FREE, because they are my members. Their continued success is more important to me than sales. I even take time at the end of nearly every training call to help other EDC members that aren't sponsored by me. Would I, as a scammer, do all of that for someone for FREE?

Now, as for what I promote? As a professional marketer (and I'm not saying this just from being in EDC), I've learned that you change your ad copy based on who you're marketing to. If I'm marketing to entrepreneurs, I present EDC for both the products that will help them become better internet marketers, and for the business opportunity it offers. Why? Because entrepreneurs are looking to make money. If I'm marketing to businesses, I market the products because that is what will be most helpful to them. Do I provide customer service and support to all of my customers, whether entrepreneur or business owner? ABSOLUTELY!

Hardly ever do I promote EDC only for the cash you can earn. To me, that's a given. If you happen upon most forums regarding EDC, you will find me (same screen name). And I am almost always offering to answer any questions or concerns that people many have about EDC. This is because I took the time to learn this business inside-out when I joined, and I feel that I can answer any question thrown at me. I also feel it's my duty as a sponsor to make sure people are educated and know the facts before they join.

So now, I've saved the best for last! Am I successful with EDC? It depends on your definition of "success," but for my efforts and situation, YES! I had an overhead of $327 when I joined (only for the software package and my backoffice maintenance fee). I earned that back in about 2 weeks. I am now averaging around $4000 a month. I spend about $35 to $50 per month on advertising. The cost of living where I am (now actually in North Carolina) is such that my household can survive quite comfortably on $4000 a month. So yes, I'm successful. As a matter of fact, I just welcomed a new team member yesterday (and remarkably, he was a skeptic from a forum much like this). I have proof available if anyone needs it. We just had our first training session this morning via Yahoo! Messenger. EDC has also allowed me to develop other streams of income, one of which is residual. I've also been earning from those.

Point blank, EDC has offered me an opportunity I've not seen anywhere else. It's allowing me to earn a significant income from home. I was able to quit my waitressing job. We're working on reaching our next financial goal so that my fiancee can feel comfortable working from home also (he kept his job as a safeguard when I joined, and he will soon be working from home with me). We now have more time to plan our wedding, to search for our new home, to volunteer with the kids' programs offered by the local community garden. We now have something that isn't possible with jobs, and that's freedom! One of my team members is working on getting out of debt thanks to EDC. Another is working to quit his job. Another was able to work from home so that she had more time to care for her elderly parents. I'm working with a young man who has been out of work for some time and is interested in joining but doesn't have the money. He has found a free program where he may be able to earn enough to join my team soon, and I'm HELPING him to promote that program (which I gain no sales or anything from, mind you) FREE of charge! Am I a scammer? I seriously think not!

Brian, you mentioned that you're a corporate marketer. Exactly what do you do, or who do you work for? It seems that you know so much about the posters here, but we know little to nothing about you. Seems to me like you'd be proud to share who you work for in this thread if you're making as much as you say. And I also have another question: Why is it that you fail to respond when posters ask you specifically for advice or recommendations for "programs that do work?" I recall seeing this happen at least twice, and more recently at the bottom of page 2. Perhaps you speak with them privately. Or perhaps you have no recommendations....If that's the case, then I find it strange that you would put down a program like EDC when you cannot suggest anything better.

And my last question: Have you ever actually been an EDC Gold member? Because you sure claim to know so much about their business model and how it works. I would almost assume that you helped to create EDC (although I know that's not true). If you haven't, then it absolutely amazes me that you claim to be an expert on how this business does or doesn't work. So now, I challenge you. Ask me any question you have about EDC, and I will answer it. Why? Because I take responsibility for my business and my role as a business owner and sponsor. My duty is first and foremost to educate.

Though I realize we are all entitled to our own opinions (and I guess you especially here, as you're the administrator), I take offense to the posts you've made about EDC. You have deterred others who were interested without giving them any proof of what you say, or any better suggestions. You have caused them to pass up an opportunity that could have really improved their current situations. In short, you have hurt my business. Even if I knew what you do for a living, I wouldn't go out and claim that it's a scam or it's crap or not worth the value. Why? Because you have to make a living just like I do. As long as you're not doing anything illegal, or not hurting anyone, it's none of my business and my time would be better served working on my own business than of bad-mounthing yours.

So for any that are interested, or were and are still a bit curious, here are the facts:

- EDC Gold launched in Dec. 2006 and is still going strong
- We have 3 membership levels, offering 3 different software packages
- You can join at $997, $297 or $69.95
- No other purchases are required to maintain membership
- Membership includes company website, marketing tools and training
- A list of many of the software titles is available on most EDC websites
- Live tech support and billing support is available 5 days a week
- Members pass up 2 training sales, then earn 100% profits thereafter
- Mid level is qualified to earn at lowest level immediately
- Top level is qualified to earn at mid and lowest levels immediately
- We have a larger market than any other home based business
- We cater to both businesses and entrepreneurs
- The founders and top earner hold 5 training classes per week
- We have just launched a revolutionary new product, PromoBlackBox
- All members, regardless of level, can promote PBB at no extra charge
- All members can earn $495 per PBB sale, no qualifying necessary
- Any member can cancel at any time for any reason

If there are any other questions, I encourage you to ask. I make myself available here, and as I work from home, you're questions will be answered almost immediately. As I've said, I welcome the challenge of proving just how great a business EDC really is!

-PA27

Thanks for the reply, "Power Advisor", but you're the second person who has stated that they were a "professional marketer" - yet also a waitress.

I dunno - if I were to visit Satchi & Satchi I would be surprised if the marketers there were waitressing. See my point? No I'm not trying to put you down personally, and no I really don't have anything personal against anyone on the EDC Gold program - but, yes I am trying to put down the high-flying titles some of the people in this thread have awarded themselves.

And - again - you make the same point that other EDC Gold members have made in this thread - that it's delivered success for you.

Absolutely no one will address the concept of the EDC Gold program offering value for buyers - instead it all appears focused on the money to made from reselling the rights to resell the rights, and training new members to sign-up and part cash to resell the rights to resell. That doesn't suggest a great value product if this is where all of the focus is.

As for recommendations on programs that work - I think this is where I part company with a lot of other people. You see, on the internet I've noticed a huge trend for people to treat starting an online business as little better than buying lottery tickets - paying this or that amount to join this or that scheme. I've already said before - it takes dedication and hard work to build your own business, and you don't need any scheme for that.

Sure, I don't doubt that there are successful people running on the EDC Gold program who are applying dedication and hard work. Yes I do doubt that EDC Gold will be around in a couple of years time. Yes, I think putting that dedication and hard work into solid business ventures with long-term goals based on value products/services (cf, ecommerce) will reap better dividends in the long term.

As for joining EDC Gold - you know, I'd probably do pretty well with it. But I'm from the UK and there's a distinctly different mindset - you could say cycnical. There's not so much of a market in "wealth creation programs" over here, but it seems in the US it's a pretty strong market.

Okay, as I'm obviously uninformed:

If I visit HYIPs forum chatting about EDC Gold, I see mentors stating they get the first two sales of each $997 member. So there's an obvious incentive to work hard to get people signed up, if you get not simply $997 from each of this level sign-up, but $2991 in total if they make two sales at the same level. This obviously can give an outside observer a perception of a pyramidal scheme feel.

So here's the question: How much do individual mentors make from the earnings of each sign up at each of the different levels?

In the meantime, here's a reminder from Wikipedia: Pyramid scheme:

So we know resell rights are puchased for resale with EDC Gold - but isn't the entire model simply based on reselling the rights to resell?

Any of this read as familiar to the above?

Number one, whether I was a waitress or the president of the US makes no difference. I have been in business and marketing for several years. I studied during my years in school. I've started my own business (aside from EDC) and am helping others to start their non-profit organizations. I am a jack of many trades. Waitressing was merely a recent job when my fiancee and I were going through rough times. So for you to say that you're not trying to put me down is rubbish. That's just what you did, made it look as if a waitress doesn't know about anything other than food and serving people. Marketing Specialist isn't a title that I bestowed on myself, it's a service and position I've served in my life. I earned it!

Ever been a waiter before Brian? They are probably actually some of the most business-savvy folks out here. Most work their jobs as if they are running their own little business, just renting out space from a larger company. They know exactly what to do to make a dollar, and they have the concept of customer service down, probably more so than anyone else I've ever met from any other profession.

If you'd bothered to read all of my post instead of picking and choosing so you could twist my words around, you'd have noticed that I DID address the issue of EDC Gold providing valuable products for the customer. Lets remember, I was a customer once also. I gave my personal testimony of how valuable this marketing suite has been for me. I even listed some of the specific products that helped me in my individual situation. Everywhere that I promote online, I discuss both the products and the income opportunity, because they are both a part of the business. I have stressed, and continue to stress, the value that customers are receiving for a much lower price (no matter which level) than trying to find and purchase each and every title individually.

Your quote: I actually train my team members to focus on our products and customer service. I go through their back office with them so that they become familiar with everything their, and encourage them to go through the tools and software so that they can see for themselves what value they received for their money. I train them no to follow in the footsteps of others with hyped-up ads, but to concentrate on promoting EDC as if it were a storefront, promoting the products and not the income behind them.

You know, not everyone operates the same way. I don't doubt that some EDC distributors promote only the income opportunity. Do I agree with what they are doing? Absolutely not! I am, first and foremost, a small business owner. I know what it means to provide value for customers (yes Brian, even a waitress can read the encyclopedia...). And I also know what a pyramid is. I do not continue to earn money off of my team members, and what I give them far outweighs what they pay for their software. I provide personalized training, valuable tools and other techniques that they would not have found anywhere else, and I provide these for free. Should I be repaid with a sale or 2 for taking time out of my business to work with each and every individual? Some might say not. Quite frankly, I'd work this business even if there was no 2-up system. I have made friends with those on my team. I know what it's like to struggle, and I take more from seeing them succeed than I do from sales.

It really depends on the sponsor and what level they are. I am at the mid level, so if I sign someone up at that level, I make $297. Then if their sales go up to me, I make another 594. And that's it. I don't continue to make hundreds and hundreds of dollars off of them. Now if you want to include those other 2 members that were signed, I would make another $1188. And as you can imagine, that goes on. If one of my team members was in dire straights and needed their first sales, would I let them keep them? Absolutely! You know why? Because I'm not dependent upon the sign-ups of that one person for my income. If EDC didn't require anyone to pass up any sales, I'd still be a member and I'd still be successful because of the way I choose to market my business and the leadership I provide. Also, I know they can pay me back later because they will be successful with me as their sponsor. Now would I do that for every single person? No, because every single person isn't going to be on the verge of losing their house or apartment. And I know the difference, because I get to know my team members. If it were all about money, I just plain wouldn't care about them.

It's strange that no one things about it, but many workforce jobs use a 1-up or 2-up system as well. I know for a fact that furniture salesmen, car salesmen and real estate agents go through this. The high-end commission-based jobs usually do, but no one refers to them as pyramid schemes or scams. My fiancee worked in furniture sales for several years. He made only a measly $10 an hour while working his but off to sell high-end furniture. The only way he could make any commissions was if he reached a "quota" of $50,000 in that month. Anything beyond that was his. Having to meet a quota is just another way of saying he was passing up sales to the company. $50,000 that should have been his (because he did all the work for it) was passed up to the company in turn for the opportunity to work there. So why is it that this isn't considered a scheme? Is it only because of product, because EDC offers tangible product. It's sitting on my hard drive right now (I can do whatever I want with it, email it to someone, burn it to a disk). Product that I could go to a retailer and buy if I wanted to spend the extra money. I preferred the bargain I got with EDC.

You can try to paint it any way you want (and you can throw out whatever insults you want about my experience or the fact that I'm American. It only shows the lack of maturity on your part, as no one has insulted you, your heritage, or what you do for a living), but I know what value customers get with EDC, and I say it every day in the topics and ads that I post. And I also know that we'll be here for the duration, because we're constantly working to bring newer and better software, tools and services to our customers. You still haven't answered any of the questions I asked you (but it's ok, I believe I have the answers I need). You go ahead and continue to put people down on your forum because you're unhappy with your own situation. It's funny, jealousy will reveal itself no matter how you try to mask it. When you focus your time and energy on demeaning others (and after the things you've said to me, and trying to make your retort still seem friendly, you cannot deny your true focus here), it shows that you have nothing worth building up for yourself. Meanwhile, my team and I are moving forward. I'm selling valuable products and services, and something that is completely priceless: the opportunity for my members to better themselves and enjoy their lives and their families. No one can deny the value in that!

-PA27

Oh, and while I'm here, I thought I'd address one more thing:

Your quote: I'll be glad to break this down for you:

I don't use hyped-up ads, I promote our marketing suites and PromoBlackBox, and explain exactly what they are

I encourage people who are interested to ask any and all questions that they want, and I encourage them to do research. I'll tell them whatever they want to know. I'll even show them what they get. I have nothing to hide as an EDC distributor.

I don't promote a "limitless" income. In all of my ads and posts on forums regarding EDC, I explain that no one becomes rich overnight, and that I don't even promise they'll make thousands in their first month, but that with effort they will start to see a lifestyle change, and will be able to earn an income that is significant enough to set them up for success. Heck, $4000 a month is chump change compared to what some are making or need to make. But it's enough that I work from home comfortably. It is a realistic income, and THAT is what I promote.

Our products are clearly listed on most websites affiliated with EDC. I can also provide a snapshot of exactly what customers get when they purchase the marketing suite (I can even send some samples if I want, because it's my software, and I'll do that if it makes someone happy). We also hold open training where non-members are welcome to join and learn about the product. And no, the product isn't vaguely described. I can list each and every one and a description (though that would take up quite a few threads).

I don't "chiefly depend on enrolling new members" for my income. I don't even have to "enroll" someone to make $500 a sale with PromoBlackBox. Why? Because I'm selling product, and because that's what I focus on. If there were no 2-up, I'd still make as much as I do. Why? Because I would no longer be spending weeks training newcomers, I'd be out making my own money. It would average out. I get 2 other new members initially from signing up a member. I can just as easily sell 3 marketing suites and PromoBlackBox here and there in a week or 2, and make the same if not more than I would have. However, any business-minded individual would agree that residual income is what we all strive for. With the 2-up, there is a certain amount of residual income built in there. So I get to earn residually in return for being a good mentor to my entire team.

It is not only the early investors who make "real income." Real is relative, and to me the income I make is very real because we have achieved a level of freedom that workforce jobs just weren't providing. We've moved to a place we'd been looking at and only dreaming of for a long time. We do not worry about rent or bills when they come around. Our house is never devoid of food or necessities. All this, and we can actually enjoy our new place, our new puppy, our new community, and planning our wedding. We have time, which in my opinion is the most valuable thing of all!

I don't have to worry about assuring and re-assuring people that what I do is legal. For starters, my customers and team members know exactly what they are getting before they purchase or join. Nothing is hidden. There are no "by the way's" for them to deal with. Second, if an investigator were to come to my door and accuse me of illegal activity and threaten to arrest me unless I show proof of what I'm "selling," I'd simply direct him to my computer, where he can see that I own not only the products I'm selling, but the re-sale rights. I can also direct him to my satisfied customers. Never in an ad have a suggested anything along the lines "don't worry, I promise it's legal." I have nothing to fear from what I do, because I'm providing products and services, and my customers seem very happy with what they've purchased, and happy with the business relationship that we have.

So now, when you consider all that it doesn't sound much like a scheme at all. Sounds more like a storefront. That's how I promote it because in my eyes, that's what it is!

-PA27

PA27, the point about waitressing is you called yourself a "professional marketer". Professionals have professional qualifications to back that up title. No, I'm not knocking waitressing, but people who are qualified in marketing don't usually end up waitressing. That's my point.

As for the comments on the pyramid scheme - all you've done is stated your own personal position, which is commendable. But let's face it, EDC Gold has given every impression of following most of the critieria provided in the Wikipedia entry.

EDC Gold isn't selling to anyone outside of the EDC Gold scheme - it promises almost unlimitless income (here on this thread we've been promised members earning 6 figure monthly salaries), and all for a bunch of ebooks that most people would be unlikely to pay just under $1k for. And your income stream is dependent upon constantly signing up new members to the scheme and holding their first few sales income for yourself.

Give yourself a break - you're obviously not dumb - but try and squeeze the hard sales talk you've been exposed to from your mind and look at the cold hard facts of the matter.

(By the way - those who posted in this thread inviting people to join new schemes have been removed).

Hi, I found this thread quite by accident, and ended up reading most of it.

I am NOT a member of EDC Gold, but I have been successful in other network marketing (MLM) opportunities.

I think good points have been made on both sides.

Power_Advisor27 has very eloquently made an excellent defense of MLM in general. I do not know anything about EDC Gold, so I cannot comment other than to say that most of the points she made can apply to other MLM opportunities as well.

As a veteran MLMer of 15 years, there are a few misconceptions I'd like to address. Just as there are both 'good' and 'bad' companies in conventional marketing, so too is this true of MLM. In general, what separates the legitimate companies from the scammers is the PRODUCT. It's very simple: if the product is something that people will buy anyway, WITHOUT the financial opportunity, then it's legit. However, if the product is just an excuse to get people to join, then that raises a red flag. In other words, if the product is the opportunity itself, and the promise of earnings is based primarily on recruiting others into the program rather than from the sale of the product, then I would recommend caution.

That does not automatically make it a 'scam' because as long as people are going into it with their eyes open, they do have the right to sell whatever product they want, even if the product is something intangible. However, an intangible product takes the company down a very slippery slope. Among MLMers, the general rule of thumb is that the difference between a legitimate MLM and a pyramid is that in a legit MLM, the distributor earns commissions from the SALE OF PRODUCT, whereas in a pyramid the distributor earns $$ by recruiting others to pay a membership fee.

When the product is something intangible, that is a grey area. Is the product really worth the amount the person is paying to sign up? This is just a question to ask. I do not know what the answer is in the case of EDC Gold.

So, I can see some truth in Brian's concerns. At the same time, Brian does not seem to be very educated about MLM and seems to lump all MLMs together as 'scams.' That is unfair and simply inaccurate. Unfortunately, it is a common reaction from people raised in the corporate world who have not taken the time to understand MLM and the many variations within the industry. To say that 'most' MLMs are scammers is like saying 'most' conventional corporations are scammers just because some are.

I personally do stay away from businesses with high startup costs and intangible products. I prefer those with products that have a high demand with the average consumer. But that's me. PA27 has obviously reached a level of success, she is having fun, and her team is happy - so it is not my place to say whether or not she is scamming anyone. Since I don't know much about her company or her product, I would reserve judgment and not judge her for choosing a different type of product than what I would persoanlly choose.

Also, I agree with PA27 that you, Brian, have apparently not read all of her posts, but have picked and chosen key phrases to attack. She clearly did say that she was NO LONGER waitressing.

And, respectfully, Brian, I found these words of yours to be offensive, and guilty of the very thing you have accused others of doing, which is to make sweeping generalizations without presenting the facts to back them up:

Do you have some statistics to back that up? What about the percentage of non-MLM businesses that are scams? Some numbers, please.

Obviously there are many scams out there. But they are not limited to home-based businesses. There are scams to be found everywhere, in all sorts of flavors. Scammers will infiltrate all avenues. That does NOT mean that 'most' MLMs are scams!

It is also true that many people jump from one to the next, looking for easy $$. But that too is not a reflection on MLM - people do that anyway. Look at how many people buy lottery tickets every week looking for easy $$, and how many try to get into show business because they want the fame and glory and big bucks. Does that mean that actors are not legitimate?

Just because many people try to make quick cash from MLM does NOT mean that MLM is a scam. Successful MLMers know, and are sure to pass this on to their networks, that to be successful in MLM requires WORK.

I worked very hard to achieve the success I did. It took me 3 years of working my first MLM to get to the point where we could live off it. Later, when I was more experienced, I joined another company in which I was making over $1200 a week within 2 months. So the $$ came more quickly in that case, because it was a product that had more appeal and the timing was right. But it still took WORK.

btw, I am still collecting a check from that first company, even though I have not done a single thing with it in over 10 years. The check is small, only about $200, but it does prove that the concept of residual income DOES work. That check is commissions I earn each month when people order the product. I have not promoted the product in over 10 years, but these people love the product so much they still order it. That's what I mean by a 'product-based' company. These customers are NOT involved with the opportunity at all; they are CUSTOMERS. So it IS a 'WORKING BUSINESS.' Brian, it is inaccurate for you to imply that MLMs are not working businesses. If product is being sold, and customers are happy, that is a working business.

Anyone who thinks they can make big bucks in MLM quickly without any work is simply being misled. I can assure you that the folks in EDC Gold are working hard, just like everyone else in any other MLM. But it's a FUN work, because they are self-motivated and independent.

I did watch the EDC Gold promo video, and I didn't care for the promises of extreme wealth in 3 weeks. That, imo, is quite misleading. It is unlikely that people will achieve that kind of success that quickly, no matter how awesome the product is, no matter how wonderful the support. For that reason, based on my limited knowledge of EDC Gold, I do think they are going overboard on the hype factor. That does not necessarily mean it's a scam; just that it's overhyped. Lots of conventional products are overhyped. It's the same with MLM.

I was involved with another company about a year ago that truly had an awesome product, but they overhyped it. Their website's promises was similar to those of EDC Gold. I did that biz very grudgingly. I used to almost apologize to people about the hype. But the product really did work and for that reason I promoted it. (It was a tangible product that came in a bottle, and people got x number of bottles for their startup fee, so that was entirely legit.)

I personally do not like hype. I personally stay away from such companies. I would caution those in EDC Gold to not put all their eggs in 1 basket, because if their main product is a virtual product, I would question how loyal their customers will be a few years from now. In other words, it might be a great opportunity now, but will the company last? Companies with tangible products tend to have more loyalty and thus more longevity.

And, often the reason people do jump from 1 biz to the next is because they were misled by the hype. For example, PA27's $4000 a month represents success. That is quite commendable! That is a nice, average middle-class income. Not bad at all for working part-time. But it's not quite at the level of being able to fly first-class and eat out every night. So the hype on EDC Gold's promo is quite misleading. To imply that joining the company will ensure wealth in 3 weeks is reprehensible, imo.

Please note that I am NOT saying EDC Gold is a scam. I don't know if it is or not. I'm saying it's overhyped. The company has done a disservice to their distributors, because undoubtedly PA27 will encounter people who will be disappointed when they're 'ONLY' earning $4k a month instead of the big bucks, and then they will have to keep recruiting more new people, since they don't have a consumable product. Good recipe for people leaving in droves when the next 'big thing' comes along. Contrast that with the loyal customers I still have, after 15 years. True, that particular biz is no longer prospering on the level it once did, but I'm now involved in another that is prospering. Having more than 1 stream of income is a smart move.

So, bottom line is, I see valid points on both sides of the argument. But, in all fairness, PA27 seems to be taking the time to back up her points, whereas Brian is just spouting generalizations and attacking an entire industry just because SOME companies in that industry are scammers. Brian, I invite you to put aside your prejudice against MLM and get more educated about it.